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mcflame1

Regarding the EM4 Modding Community

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I have kept this to myself for the past couple of years. But I believe it is time to share my thoughts on the whole EM4 Modding Community. The community is in a bad place due to both people who create mods for the game and the people that play those mods. And the reason for that is for 2 reasons. Mod creators either keeping their mods private for no real reason besides they can. And for mod creators who release mods but then forbid people from using stuff from that mod (looking at you Itchboy). And they both affect the community the same way. They keep people from creating and releasing mods that they are proud of. Not everyone that can work on a mod have the skills that other people do. Plus mod creators need to start somewhere and usually that is with a reskin of a current mod. Forbidding people from using your stuff in a mod and releasing it. And throwing a hissy fit when someone does is hurting the community. Because again. It limits how good a mod is because they aren't as good as others. The only reason a mod should be kept private is if it is either a work-in-progress (WIP) or it is unstable. But other than that. Mods should be made public when they are finished or close to finish and need bug testing that more than a couple people can do. The modding community can't really grow as much as it can if we keep making mods private or forbidding people from using things from one mod and putting it in another. Have I wanted mods like River Falls? Yes. Will we get them? No. Why? Because the mod creators are selfish and want to keep the mods private. I wonder how many mods have died because the mod developers couldn't use stuff from another mod? All that should be required for a mod to be released is everything that you did not create gets credit to the people who did create it.

That is enough on the mod creators being selfish and restricting the modding community.
Do I understand that the player base for Emergency 4 can be annoying? Yes. And I can somewhat understand why. People begging for mods can be easily solved by releasing your mod to the public once it is done. But what happens if it is still a WIP? Then you just say that the mod is still a work-in-progress and will be released when it is done. As for people asking for release dates. What we have done on here is enough to keep it to a minimum. Will there still be people asking for release dates? Yes. Why? 9/10 times. It will be because they did not read the TOS for the site. Are there other annoyances with the community? Yes. Can I think of it off the top of my head. Not right now.

Can the community be helped and Emergency 4 can have an amazing modding community? Hell Yeah. But it has to come down to people like Itchboy who needs to let people use their stuff in other mods or using their mod as a base. And people to stop needlessly keeping mods private. Those 2 things hurt the community the most. And restrict the creativity of mods as I know people want to make mods as realistic as possible.

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I'll gladly have a discussion. Let's all keep it civil, and please for fucks' sake don't abuse the downvote feature.

My position on this issue has not changed. I am going to tell it like it is.

I won't give my opinion on the private mods issue because I've already said my thoughts on that many times. I'm also not going to speak on other modders' behalf.

Regarding usage of content, I don't put much more thought into it than this: I make content that I like, on my own terms. I set the rules how my content is used. If you don't like those terms, don't use the content.

Go ahead and hold me responsible for "killing Em4 modding". You have the right to hold that opinion, and I have the right to not care for what you think of me.

I also don't agree with the framing of this situation that "the begging will stop when the assets are released". I know for a fact that people still complained about these issues even after the release of Montana mod. And with that in mind, why should I be bothered by begging, when I can just...not do anything about it? I can go on with my day unaffected by it.

Personally, I don't see the point in beating this dead horse again; at a fundamental level, you and I won't see eye to eye so what's the point of bringing this up?

At the end of the dya, I do this because I want to, not because I owe it to someone. Clout? Fame? Views? I could give a fuck. I'm here because I like doing this, I have my friends and good people around me. We shoot the shit, have fun. That's all it is to me now.

Moving forward, I'd like to resolve this situation by offering a compromise: I'll stay away from you, and you stay away from me. No future arguments erupt from this situation, nobody loses anything.  Life is hard enough as is for everyone in the world right now, I don't think Em4 modding should be another weight on people.

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I'm sorry but this is so wrong, It is frustrating to see you and other complain about modders because you don't agree with their terms of service/usage of that particular mod. If a Modder decided you cannot use their assets/mods it is entirely their choice and that is the end of it, If you don't like it the best thing you can do is to put your time and effort into learning the skills necessary just like we did, so your able to create your own work instead of relying on others. In my opinion it is in fact people like you witch damage the community and turns future modders off from wanting to create new content

 

Imagine spending countless hours working on a project building assets, testing and troubleshooting issues  and then releasing the product free of charge only to have people post how it's not fair that they can't use your work. In my mind this is madness and is where the real fault lies....

 

As an ex Em4 modder I'm glad I'm not active in this community these days. Thankfully this thing doesn't really exists in Em5.

It's really disheartening to see and shameful

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17 hours ago, mcflame1 said:

I have kept this to myself for the past couple of years. But I believe it is time to share my thoughts on the whole EM4 Modding Community. The community is in a bad place due to both people who create mods for the game and the people that play those mods. And the reason for that is for 2 reasons. Mod creators either keeping their mods private for no real reason besides they can. And for mod creators who release mods but then forbid people from using stuff from that mod (looking at you Itchboy). And they both affect the community the same way. They keep people from creating and releasing mods that they are proud of. Not everyone that can work on a mod have the skills that other people do. Plus mod creators need to start somewhere and usually that is with a reskin of a current mod. Forbidding people from using your stuff in a mod and releasing it. And throwing a hissy fit when someone does is hurting the community. Because again. It limits how good a mod is because they aren't as good as others. The only reason a mod should be kept private is if it is either a work-in-progress (WIP) or it is unstable. But other than that. Mods should be made public when they are finished or close to finish and need bug testing that more than a couple people can do. The modding community can't really grow as much as it can if we keep making mods private or forbidding people from using things from one mod and putting it in another. Have I wanted mods like River Falls? Yes. Will we get them? No. Why? Because the mod creators are selfish and want to keep the mods private. I wonder how many mods have died because the mod developers couldn't use stuff from another mod? All that should be required for a mod to be released is everything that you did not create gets credit to the people who did create it.

That is enough on the mod creators being selfish and restricting the modding community.
Do I understand that the player base for Emergency 4 can be annoying? Yes. And I can somewhat understand why. People begging for mods can be easily solved by releasing your mod to the public once it is done. But what happens if it is still a WIP? Then you just say that the mod is still a work-in-progress and will be released when it is done. As for people asking for release dates. What we have done on here is enough to keep it to a minimum. Will there still be people asking for release dates? Yes. Why? 9/10 times. It will be because they did not read the TOS for the site. Are there other annoyances with the community? Yes. Can I think of it off the top of my head. Not right now.

Can the community be helped and Emergency 4 can have an amazing modding community? Hell Yeah. But it has to come down to people like Itchboy who needs to let people use their stuff in other mods or using their mod as a base. And people to stop needlessly keeping mods private. Those 2 things hurt the community the most. And restrict the creativity of mods as I know people want to make mods as realistic as possible.

Asset restrictions are born from a place of people using other people's work (or even profiting from other people's work) and not giving due credit to the source.  Private mods come from a user base that whines and complains constantly when they don't have something and then continues to whine and complain that it's not good enough when they do get it (see the current Montana release for an example). I can see why it would be easier to just release a mod to your friends and people you want to play with instead of to the wider community. ESPECIALLY when the work they put in is done in their free time and for free. It's not like they're selling you DLC. You should know this as a modder yourself.

If the EM4 community is to become more active like it was in its heyday, people need to be honest and grateful instead of shady and entitled.  That's all there is to it really.  But now we are getting into entire societal problems not limited to just our community. You can see this in almost every modding community to be honest, ours is just relatively small so it's felt extra hard.

And, honestly I think the blame for this ultimately lands on SixteenTons Entertainment for failing to put any ToS regarding modding in their game's ToS. Other games do this to specify what exactly can be changed and what access must be provided to the community.  As it is we are left to "police" ourselves and disagreements about what's best for the community are frequent.

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31 minutes ago, Freelancer said:

I'm sorry but this is so wrong, It is frustrating to see you and other complain about modders because you don't agree with their terms of service/usage of that particular mod. If a Modder decided you cannot use their assets/mods it is entirely their choice and that is the end of it, If you don't like it the best thing you can do is to put your time and effort into learning the skills necessary just like we did, so your able to create your own work instead of relying on others. In my opinion it is in fact people like you witch damage the community and turns future modders off from wanting to create new content

 

Imagine spending countless hours working on a project building assets, testing and troubleshooting issues  and then releasing the product free of charge only to have people post how it's not fair that they can't use your work. In my mind this is madness and is where the real fault lies....

 

As an ex Em4 modder I'm glad I'm not active in this community these days. Thankfully this thing doesn't really exists in Em5.

It's really disheartening to see and shameful

Mod creators should be glad that their work is being used in other mods. Very few people in the EM4 Modding Community are anywhere close to the levels of Itchboy's skill. And creating mods takes a really long time anyway. So using stuff from another mod will help get the mod out sooner and make the mod better overall. Look at GTA 5. There are a ton of assets released that vehicle developers can use instead of having to create new ones. Sometimes. You got to put your ego behind and think what is best for the community. Just don't get me started on the whole paid mods shit for GTA 5/FiveM.

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6 minutes ago, mcflame1 said:

Mod creators should be glad that their work is being used in other mods. Very few people in the EM4 Modding Community are anywhere close to the levels of Itchboy's skill. And creating mods takes a really long time anyway. So using stuff from another mod will help get the mod out sooner and make the mod better overall. Look at GTA 5. There are a ton of assets released that vehicle developers can use instead of having to create new ones. Sometimes. You got to put your ego behind and think what is best for the community. Just don't get me started on the whole paid mods shit for GTA 5/FiveM.

"Mod creators should be glad that their work is being used in other mods."

 

Unfortunately you don't get to tell people how to feel.  And I do agree with being against paid mods but that's neither here nor there.  For what it's worth I do agree that something like a "vehicle pack" or "basic scripts pack" would be hugely beneficial to the community but it's also not my place to try and force mod authors - who again do this in their own free time - to make one.  In the end it's about respecting people's time and choices and being thankful for what we do have.

Edited by AShadowbox
added a spiel
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"Mod creators should be glad that their work is being used in other mods" Again this is so wrong, I don't know what your modding abilities and weather you've made a mod but mod creators are just happy to release their work after what can take up to years of development. To assume this statement you've made is wrong. Modders are not happy to see their work ripped off and see others claim it's their own due to the fact they've slapped some different colours onto it. 

 

The only way you can achieve the skill set of itchboy is to do the exactly same thing he and others before him have done and invest your time in learning. We've all had to do it and have taken many years of trail and error. As "AShadowbox" mentions above you can not be so entitled to tell mod creators what to do with they work. If you don't like it, make it yourself just like we all did. 

 

If a mod creator wants to sell their product for GTA 5 then they have every right to, they've invested their own time into it and what is wrong with a little reward, most paid mods I've seen are cheap. People seem to forget making mods can cost money take for example my Essex mod for Em5 I've paid out for every single one of our blueprints so we can have the highest quality drawings possible. Then not to mention I pay for Substance painter witch is my 3D texture program, again to achieve the best finish possible. and of course high quality PBR Textures this is adding up to hundred's of pounds, all of this comes out my own pocket witch I will release for free. Then I have to read about someone complaining about modders because they can't get their own way?

 

Unfortunately your post is making you look bad, this is what is wrong with the community self entitled individuals disrespecting the hard work of modders.... 


The old saying "don't bite the hand that feeds you" comes to mind...

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Alrighty, I wanna just add my 2 cents real quick. No Offense to this message, But why are we all picking a fight over modifcations" meant for a game? I get we all trying to get a point across but what is this going to prove at end of the day? 

 

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49 minutes ago, S55-15 Nick said:

Alrighty, I wanna just add my 2 cents real quick. No Offense to this message, But why are we all picking a fight over modifcations" meant for a game? I get we all trying to get a point across but what is this going to prove at end of the day? 

 

As someome who faced far worse communities than EM4 one, this, over here.

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On 1/8/2023 at 10:09 PM, mcflame1 said:

I have kept this to myself for the past couple of years. But I believe it is time to share my thoughts on the whole EM4 Modding Community. The community is in a bad place due to both people who create mods for the game and the people that play those mods. And the reason for that is for 2 reasons. Mod creators either keeping their mods private for no real reason besides they can. And for mod creators who release mods but then forbid people from using stuff from that mod (looking at you Itchboy). And they both affect the community the same way. They keep people from creating and releasing mods that they are proud of. Not everyone that can work on a mod have the skills that other people do. Plus mod creators need to start somewhere and usually that is with a reskin of a current mod. Forbidding people from using your stuff in a mod and releasing it. And throwing a hissy fit when someone does is hurting the community. Because again. It limits how good a mod is because they aren't as good as others. The only reason a mod should be kept private is if it is either a work-in-progress (WIP) or it is unstable. But other than that. Mods should be made public when they are finished or close to finish and need bug testing that more than a couple people can do. The modding community can't really grow as much as it can if we keep making mods private or forbidding people from using things from one mod and putting it in another. Have I wanted mods like River Falls? Yes. Will we get them? No. Why? Because the mod creators are selfish and want to keep the mods private. I wonder how many mods have died because the mod developers couldn't use stuff from another mod? All that should be required for a mod to be released is everything that you did not create gets credit to the people who did create it.

That is enough on the mod creators being selfish and restricting the modding community.
Do I understand that the player base for Emergency 4 can be annoying? Yes. And I can somewhat understand why. People begging for mods can be easily solved by releasing your mod to the public once it is done. But what happens if it is still a WIP? Then you just say that the mod is still a work-in-progress and will be released when it is done. As for people asking for release dates. What we have done on here is enough to keep it to a minimum. Will there still be people asking for release dates? Yes. Why? 9/10 times. It will be because they did not read the TOS for the site. Are there other annoyances with the community? Yes. Can I think of it off the top of my head. Not right now.

Can the community be helped and Emergency 4 can have an amazing modding community? Hell Yeah. But it has to come down to people like Itchboy who needs to let people use their stuff in other mods or using their mod as a base. And people to stop needlessly keeping mods private. Those 2 things hurt the community the most. And restrict the creativity of mods as I know people want to make mods as realistic as possible.

Ah yes, the subpar modder that wants everything handed to him. I grew up and out of this stage. Maybe you will too someday.

Everyone else on here is right. What someone creates is theirs, and theirs only. They have 100% control over what they choose and choose not to do with it. While it would be great to have access to use some of Itchboy's great stuff, I respect and understand his decision to do what he did. The modding community here is definitely extremely toxic and this is just another example of it.

While I have moved passed serious mod making, mainly due to real life obligations(Lets be honest, fighting real fires for a living is way cooler anyways), I have come to the realization that if I want something, I have to learn and do it myself. Sadly, due to reasons stated above, that is likely out of the cards for me. Plus, I'm not gonna waste my time learning skills for a outdated game with less than stellar capabilities.

TL;DR - Make it yourself and stop bitching

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Here is my thought process on paid mods. There are mod developers/creators that will create something that is trademarked/copywritten and then sell it. That part is illegal. Yet no one cares. There is a reason game companies need to have a license to use trademarked items. It is because if they don't. They can get sued for copyright infringement (I believe). If they are selling something that isn't trademarked. Then go ahead. I don't care. But selling stuff that they don't have licenses to sell is what gets me. Now can we please drop the paid mods topic. 

 

As for what I said in the first post. I see where you all are coming from. But for the mod creators. This community is small enough as it is. And there are mods the get released in an incomplete form because the developers don't have the time anymore to work on the mod(s). Are there mods that we all wished would have gotten completed? Yeah. Look at all the attempts to create a Chicago mod. Still don't know why each one ends up dead. Maybe we can call it the Chicago Curse or something. Speaking of dead mods. We can use stuff from mods like Fairfax V3 in other mods as long as we give credit to the mod developers. Right? Asking because I used one of the stations from Fairfax V3 and did give credit for it in Northview South County Revived 1.25. 

Back on topic. The amount of mod creators that will stay in the EM4 community long enough to learn as much as someone like Itchboy is extremely small. Maybe like AShadowBox said. Maybe we can release various dev resources to be used in other mods. As long as the person who created that dev resource gets credit. That would also help the community. I know communities can be toxic. Just look at the ATS/ETS2 modding communities. Where people upload mods that they did not create to sites where they make money off each download. And those same people are incredibly hated in that community. This community can be worse. 

There is a reason there were a ton of Mayberry and LA based mods. And it comes down to that those mod creators did not mind using their mods as a base for people to learn how to create mods. As long as they were credited for the base mod. In my opinion. Releasing mods and having others criticizing what you did is a good tool to help you figure out where you made mistakes and where you can learn. My first mod that I ended up heavily editing it and still do edit is the Riverside mod. I have learned a ton about modding by using that mod but at the same time. I wish I had people's opinions on the mod to help me figure out what I can do better and where I made mistakes.

 

AND BEFORE ANY SAYS ANYTHING ABOUT THE GERMAN MODDING COMMUNITY. I KNOW THERE ARE A LOT MORE PEOPLE OVER THERE LIKE ITCHBOY. BUT I WOULD RATHER HAVE SOMEONE THAT I CAN UNDERSTAND WITHOUT HAVING TO CONSTANTLY USE A TRANSLATOR.

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As someone who has played this game for who knows how long and has been in the site since 2020 (Made a new account), I have seen this debate tons and tons. But really at the end of the day, it is up to the creators. I see it like this. If I designed a car, do I have to give the design of my doors to everyone else? Nope. If I make a new engine, do I have to give it out to everyone else. No. I do agree with McFlame that most modders do start with reskins and that reskins are a great introduction, but I really don't think you can blame some mod devs for not making things public when there is still a wide range of options. I have seem some absolute fine looking reskins on discord. Making models and sirens and lights and maps takes time so it doesn't surprise me that many people want to protect the work that they spent there free time making. But on the flip side, I do think that maybe there should be more materials to get people started. Having a wider range of public models would be cool. If you look at the newest releases there isn't that many models beside some map props and a sick Halloween car. It definitely would be cool if someone took an initiative and started making those, but nobody has to do that. If I knew how to mod em4 and I had the time to mod em4 without wanting to hope back on warzone after the first day of trying, then I think that would be cool. For whatever reason most people don't make individual models and publish them, just have to deal with it, you can't control that or force a community to start making free  to use models (free to use as in allowed to use not as in the money form of free) Again, at the end of the day, mod devs take there free time to make mods, if they want their stuff private, let them keep it private.  

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On 1/27/2023 at 10:36 PM, NoYes said:

As someone who has played this game for who knows how long and has been in the site since 2020 (Made a new account), I have seen this debate tons and tons. But really at the end of the day, it is up to the creators. I see it like this. If I designed a car, do I have to give the design of my doors to everyone else? Nope. If I make a new engine, do I have to give it out to everyone else. No. I do agree with McFlame that most modders do start with reskins and that reskins are a great introduction, but I really don't think you can blame some mod devs for not making things public when there is still a wide range of options. I have seem some absolute fine looking reskins on discord. Making models and sirens and lights and maps takes time so it doesn't surprise me that many people want to protect the work that they spent there free time making. But on the flip side, I do think that maybe there should be more materials to get people started. Having a wider range of public models would be cool. If you look at the newest releases there isn't that many models beside some map props and a sick Halloween car. It definitely would be cool if someone took an initiative and started making those, but nobody has to do that. If I knew how to mod em4 and I had the time to mod em4 without wanting to hope back on warzone after the first day of trying, then I think that would be cool. For whatever reason most people don't make individual models and publish them, just have to deal with it, you can't control that or force a community to start making free  to use models (free to use as in allowed to use not as in the money form of free) Again, at the end of the day, mod devs take there free time to make mods, if they want their stuff private, let them keep it private.  

I know that the EM4Resource mod team is working on releasing a bunch of vehicles when they release their NY Mass Border mod. Which will, at the earliest, be March since that is when they will have their site back up. But we are still kinda low on things like new scripts since a lot of people here on emergency planet don't speak german so they can't really use a lot of the scripts on the german emergency forum without translating the whole thing. Plus some other developer resources like various lighting equipment would be very helpful. And it would be helpful if we had access to more american buildings for mod so they don't have a european feel. Developer resources are one of the things that are definitely hurting the modding community.

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