No More Red Lights and Sirens for USFS Region 3

[MikesPhotos]

Snippet from the just released "Response to Lights and Sirens Committee Final Report"

As we shared with you recently at the RLT meeting, we do not believe our personnel, within the scope of our mission, require a need to have red lights and siren capabilities when responding to incidents. Therefore, we will not authorize training or use of existing equipment for this purpose on any of the Forests within the Region. If any units have authorized this use, I ask that you cease this use as soon as possible.

....

However, when this current fleet is up for replacement, we will need to begin equipping our vehicles with the appropriate lighting packages only to meet the needs of maintaining the highest level of visibility for our personnel, and no longer include red lights or siren equipment for those unauthorized uses.

CORBIN L. NEWMAN, JR.

Regional Forester

As region 3 goes, so will many of the others.

[Newfoundking]

Region 3, is that like LA or where?

[MikesPhotos]

Region 3, is that like LA or where?

Google is your friend!

In Arizona and New Mexico, 22.3 million acres comprise the Southwestern Region with 11 national forests and 3 national grasslands (1 grassland each in New Mexico, Texas, and Oklahoma). The region ranges in elevation from 1,600 feet above sea level and an annual rain fall of 8 inches in Arizona's lower Sonoran Desert to 13,171-foot high Wheeler Peak and over 35 inches of precipitation a year in northern New Mexico.

California, just for info, is Region 5

[Xplorer4x4]

Mike, if i may what are your thoughts on that? Im not familar with the area but i would think the trucks deserve to have red lights and sirens as surley these trucks have to travel major road ways dont they?

[Newfoundking]

I suppose, but I don't think missing the red lights would hamper the response, most of it would be back roads, or in the forest, by the actual fire, where people are doing there best to get away from that, not like in a city or something, where there is traffic

[TROOPER05]

I suppose, but I don't think missing the red lights would hamper the response, most of it would be back roads, or in the forest, by the actual fire, where people are doing there best to get away from that, not like in a city or something, where there is traffic

Just like all senior citizens should have life alert

ALL emergency vehicles whether personal or not - should have light and siren abilities...

I STRONGLY disagree

[Newfoundking]

Well look at it this way, for the amount of time they would be in traffic, responding it's not necessary.

That's why helos and Aircraft don't get lights put on them, it's not needed, sure it'd be nice to know, okay this guy is in a hurry, but not many people would see it..

[MikesPhotos]

My personal feelings on this is that the policy is simply myopic in nature. It is focused solely on the requirements of Region 3s needs and the forester seems to forget the mission requirements of belonging to a larger body with responsibilities throughout the US. When large fires break out, and they do every year without fail, strike teams are formed to assist out of area needs. It is common for units as far as Florida to go to California and Washington State, and all throughout the US all summer long. By not only removing the lighting, but the safety training that goes with it, these units will no longer be able to function in areas of Wildland Urban Interfaces that require Code 3 Red Lights and Siren responses. Yes, Region 3 has minimal interface issues, but to take that ability away for responses out of the area is simply asinine and dangerous. Once more it is a testament to the NEW way of thinking ever since the tragic loss of BDF E57. No more structure protection, no more red lights and sirens, manage fires, do not attack them, so on and so forth.

The USFS policy manual goes in waves throughout history, and this is but another chapter that will be reversed and replayed over and over again.

[Ami89E1234]

and judging by the sound of it, wouldnt red lights be a little hard to see in the daytime in the desert? i do agree they should at least have sirens, if anything at all. no sirens is a bit too overkill

[Newfoundking]

I think they should have some sort of emergency lighting for sure to make them visible, I agree with that, but also since they will be responding from out of state sometimes( which I didn't take into account) they should also have sirens too.

Wait... Units from 3 can't have red lights and sirens, but what if a unit from 5 (la) comes, then do they have to shut off the sirens and lights when they enter there, or what?

[Pearl71]

I like Pa's way of thinking, A Vehicle Classified as Fire App. is required to be equipped with flashing red lights and audible warning device. this excludes DCNR(Department of Conservation and Natural Resources) Vehicles ( pickup trucks, SUV's). also PA is made up of Volly Fire Crews in each fire department , and then by district. DCNR also allocates equipment for the fire departments to use, equip., paint, and outfit with such devices. Mostly made up of Military surplus vehicles. Operated by the Privet Volly company, but if that company looses intrest in wildland firefighting they return the equipment to DCNR to be re distributed to another company.

[Newfoundking]

Well regardless of state law, if a federal fire department says no to a certain type of lighting on their vehicle, then that's a no.. Federal Vehicles are different from state and city. Like in NY I do believe, (at least it was) that a police car cannot run blue lights only red and white, like on the NYPD... However FBI can run blue, because they are Federal.

[jab16]

I'd think red flashing lights would be very disorenting during a fire? i would get confused

[Newfoundking]

Well apparently they aren't too bad, as they are on almost every North American Fire truck... I don't know though, I've never attempted to fight a forest fire with a fire truck behind me, or for that matter, at all!

[Grim_Wizard]

That's some serious BS. That could have an adverse effect if it's a small brush fire.

For example, a speeding rig down the interstate with almost no identifiers will probobly be involved in an accident. People pay more attention to a lighted rig then an unlit one.

[jab16]

well not all the time. the lights in my opinion are up for grabs but the real concern for me is the siren. Because of the siren people begin to pull over ( hopefully ) and will most of the time look for a souce so they can move and just because your curious. And because the forest fire trucks are green ( to the best of my brain power ) they can easly be distinguished between a civil car or truck because most of the time you will never see somthing that big painted green.

[Xplorer4x4]

Well look at it this way, for the amount of time they would be in traffic, responding it's not necessary.

That's why helos and Aircraft don't get lights put on them, it's not needed, sure it'd be nice to know, okay this guy is in a hurry, but not many people would see it..

Of course its not needed on air craft. Compare air traffic, where aircraft can move freely vs a vehicle which is, generally, confined to a road. A helicopter, for example, weahter it be something like a Firehawk,PD Chopper, or Air Evac chopper, arent dealing with the any where close to the same volume of traffic that a fire truck or ground based emergency vehicle deals with, and for that matter an aircraft has added maneuverability as they can go up and down as well as side to side.

well not all the time. the lights in my opinion are up for grabs but the real concern for me is the siren. Because of the siren people begin to pull over ( hopefully ) and will most of the time look for a souce so they can move and just because your curious. And because the forest fire trucks are green ( to the best of my brain power ) they can easly be distinguished between a civil car or truck because most of the time you will never see somthing that big painted green.

But when they start to look a big green truck with red lights vs a big green truck is going to stand out and allow people to determine the best course of action to allow the emergency vehicle safe passage.

[Newfoundking]

Well I know the traffic is different for aircraft and ground units, but for local responses they will be mainly on back roads, and by the forest... There won't be a lot of traffic headed towards the forest fire... When I made the post, I wasn't aware of units being caled from way out to respond...

[Grim_Wizard]

What about a fire near a busy road?

[Guest matt31896]

Hey NewFoundKing how did Mary's lamb taste?

[Newfoundking]

Like mint... haha

And near the busy road, I think that would be city FD.. Unless it's a forest fire, then USFS would be there, but I doubt that the road would still be busy with a blazing fire there

[FireLt640]

My thought on this is that NFPA sets the standards for all fire apparaus and USFS is NFPA compliant, so they probably can not legally run their rigs without lights and sirens.

[Newfoundking]

They can, and they are... It says nowhere that a firetruck has to have red lights and sirens... At least not that I've found

[Ami89E1234]

since were on the topic of lights does anyone know the regs on using white lights?

i know red is illegal to have everywhere if youre not in an emergency vehicle but i know in Missouri its legal to have everything but red. what to white lights "mean" (if anything) and does usage vary by jurisdiction or is it national?

BTW do pink lights still count as red? lol

[Xplorer4x4]

Light laws usually vary by state from what I know. I believe white lights, depending on there usage, are legal in India. Fire and EMS run RED. PD runs Red and Blue. Volly FFs run blue with no sirens. EMTs can run green on there personnel vehicle in the line of duty, which I have never seen here, and only once seen a volly ff actually running a blue light. However depending on the cop, and depending on how its mounted you can get away with lights under your car. Usually if the tube isnt showing and you only see a glow on the ground they usually let you go.