Ambulance/fire truck

[firefighter111]

Has anyone heard anything about the new Braun patriot model ambulance, it'll have a 200 gallon tank, a CAFS system, 2 1" booster reels, seating for a crew of 6, a full transport capable patient compartment and space to carry all the normal ambulance equipment, and space to carry light rescue equipment. It sounds like a cool idea to me, but I have to wonder, will it be able to do all these thing effectively, or will it end up like the quint and have to many thing to do any of them effectively. Also, another thing is that if you're using that as an engine and an ambulance the two jobs will interfere with each other, such as if you're at an mva and you've got a critical patient and this is the only apparatus you've got there, you can't leave the wreck their all by it's self because there could be a fuel leak or something, but, at the same time, you can't just sit their with a critical trauma patient. Also, if you were using it as an engine, and then you ended up having to do an immediate transport (i.e. cardiac arrest with cpr in progress), you'd still have to break down the rig before you could start transporting. What do you guys think.

[Guest nerd in nyc]

I really don't see the practicality of the design. Yes, EMS and Fire, though go hand in hand, but they are two completely different functions. The Quint is perfect because the roles it may play are directly related to fire suppression (ie. truck co., engine co., fast, or rescue). I think this will be just a waste of money and resources.

If you have a car fire with entrapment, what role will this unit play? We can simply send an engine and bus and the same job will be performed while not risking any further day in transport (besides the typical rush hour, traffic jams situations) with having to break down the unit.

[kyle308]

its called a squamper, or squad pumper. they have been around for awhile. Some companies even build full engines with a 500 gallon tank and 1000gpm pump. looks like a raised roof firetruck with an extra long cabin. the stretcher goes in the rear seating area sideways and you have all the med equipment against the wall. Overall they fail at life lol

[Newfoundking]

I can see how they might serve useful in very rare situations, ie if you need to rescue someone, a heli can't get there, and it's too firery to get an ambulance there... A squamer or whatever it's called can put out the fire enough to rescue the vic, then take them on board and go away, but of every call I've ever heard, that's never happened, therefore it basically makes itself useless.. I'm sure in like the world of Em4 it's perfect. Like how awesome would it be to do a full car accident with fire with just one unit? Pretty best kind, but in real life it's just useless.

[billyfromhill]

I think this will be just a waste of money and resourcesIf you have a car fire with entrapment, what role will this unit play? We can simply send an engine and bus and the same job will be performed while not risking any further day in transport (besides the typical rush hour, traffic jams situations) with having to break down the unit.

This is exactly the thinking behind the light force concept that LAFD uses, and look how sucessful they have been over the years. Engines with transport capabilities are nothing new. They have been around for quite a while but they're not very popular. I believe the idea behind them is to supplement the regular ambulances, not completely replace them.

[firefighter111]

This is exactly the thinking behind the light force concept that LAFD uses, and look how sucessful they have been over the years. Engines with transport capabilities are nothing new. They have been around for quite a while but they're not very popular. I believe the idea behind them is to supplement the regular ambulances, not completely replace them.

No, the idea behind Braun's rig at least is replace both trucks and combine them to one, so for example, a volunteer FD can respond to a call with only enough manpower for one truck.

Braun Patriot product page and pictures

[MCERT1]

Squmpers and pumpulances are interesting, but I don't like some logic behind them. One of the biggest arguments from agencies that use them, is that it's cheaper than having two vehicles. My biggest point of concern is wear and tear... Medics get the snot beat out of them, how much better does a pumpulance at a significantly higher cost fair in the long run?

As for vollies using it as an all encompassing unit...You're still gonna need enough manpower to fufill all roles at an accident scene even if you only need to bring one truck...Makes it kind of a moot point point in my opinion.

[TacticalRooster22]

I like the design, but I hate the cab. It should be long-nose. And yes, the FD and EMS emergencies could interfere, but in a volunteer FD MVA situation, you'd have enough manpower for one rig. That one could be first responding, and additional manpower can arrive and take out other rigs. There are ups-and-downs, but overall, it's a cool idea.

[MCERT1]

See the real nasty part is when that is the first response unit...You pull of all your equipment, booster lines, etc. now you have a critical trauma patient you need to transport asap. Now you need to roll lines, and hopefully your extrication equipment isn't pre-connected and unremovable or else you're going to have to clean up a scene prior to transporting the patient.

There's a video walkthrough of one somewhere online. My other big gripe is for a unit that big, the treatment area isn't any bigger than a standard ambulance. I could see it more effectively used as a special operations truck, saving the casualty space for command and rehab activities. But at that point, you might as well get a heavy rescue with walk-in space. If you consider the transport ability a secondary feature the unit is viable. If you're using it specifically as a medic (and some places do) INMHO your waisting time, money, and resources.

Found the link:Here

[firefighter111]

See the real nasty part is when that is the first response unit...You pull of all your equipment, booster lines, etc. now you have a critical trauma patient you need to transport asap. Now you need to roll lines, and hopefully your extrication equipment isn't pre-connected and unremovable or else you're going to have to clean up a scene prior to transporting the patient.

There's a video walkthrough of one somewhere online. My other big gripe is for a unit that big, the treatment area isn't any bigger than a standard ambulance. I could see it more effectively used as a special operations truck, saving the casualty space for command and rehab activities. But at that point, you might as well get a heavy rescue with walk-in space. If you consider the transport ability a secondary feature the unit is viable. If you're using it specifically as a medic (and some places do) INMHO your waisting time, money, and resources.

Found the link:Here

That's actually just a Braun Ambulance with a crew cab on it, and a few fire suppression tools, like a set of irons in the cab. The patriot however, actually has a pump and a tank and everything in addition to the crew cab.

[MCERT1]

Didn't realize they were different till then... Personal preference would still be drop the water and CAFS and use it a rescue.

[Xplorer4x4]

Squmpers and pumpulances are interesting, but I don't like some logic behind them. One of the biggest arguments from agencies that use them, is that it's cheaper than having two vehicles. My biggest point of concern is wear and tear... Medics get the snot beat out of them, how much better does a pumpulance at a significantly higher cost fair in the long run?

Well if you have an ambulance and pumper/quint/rescue(weather it be say a Ford like the HES in LA Mod or the USAR Truck) responding to a medical aid then arent you beating the crap out of both rigs?

As for packing up and such, well in the case of an MVA is it fair to say 9/10 your going to just need a preconnect? If so how long is it really going to take to tear down a preconnect?

[billyfromhill]

How about you just throw an Air-Kwik system on an ambulance so it has some fire suppression capabilities? It can be fitted on almost any vehicle.

http://www.air-kwik.com/index.html

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mikesphotos_us/4593936522/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mikesphotos_us/4452955092/

[MCERT1]

Something like an Air-Kwik system would be more logical, but the problem is just that medic-pumper combination units are mostly illogical.The bottom line is what is the primary concern of the crew, fire supression, or treatment? You can use it effectively as a pumper or medic, but not both, departments that have tried them tend to come to this rationalization. Most department have all the toys it needs to provide on scene care (minus a backboard) already on their primary fire truck, if you aren't using it for transport then what is the point? If you're using it for transport, then the suppression equipment has a very limited use.

What works better are rescue-medic combos, where extrication equipment and other tools are kept on board. Still, they have some logistical issues unless designed and implemented correctly. Crews tend to run as medical personnel, bringing rescue tools with them, not as rescue crews bringing medical supplies. They can use hand tools gain access to patients, before additional crews arrive. Extrication equipment (if needed) is removable from the unit which allows it to leave scene. Even with an Air-Kwik system, you can't just leave it at scene, the unit is tied down. Regardless of how long or short that time is, it risks the life of a patient, the "Golden Hour" doesn't stop.

[billyfromhill]

The purpose of the Air-Kwik system is to give units that would not normally carry a pump/tank some sort of emergency fire supression system besides a few dry chemical/pressurized water extingushers that can be utilized to attack the fire until an engine arrives. It's not really supposed to be a replacement for a pump. LAFD has a few plug-buggies with them installed and I believe the most recent purchase of TDAs carries one as well. Obviously you're not going to be fighting a fire with an 80 gallon system on a truck for any length of time.

I believe HAZMAT units also use them for local/immediate decontamination using some sort of decon foam added to the tank.

[Dakota]

As for vollies using it as an all encompassing unit...You're still gonna need enough manpower to fufill all roles at an accident scene even if you only need to bring one truck...Makes it kind of a moot point point in my opinion.

Most vollies respond POV so they would just meet the truck at the scene. Volunteers are becoming a rarity so anything to help get the equipment needed to the scene with minimum manpower until mutual aid arrives is beneficial to these places.

[MCERT1]

Most vollies respond POV so they would just meet the truck at the scene. Volunteers are becoming a rarity so anything to help get the equipment needed to the scene with minimum manpower until mutual aid arrives is beneficial to these places.

Depending on where you live they're a rarity, here only two departments in the county are paid... Also around here you don't respond to scene in a POV or only do in rare situations, it's too big a liability and a logistic nightmare.

[SirMoo]

Wouldn't something like this be logical for small cities that may only have 3 stations... Toss two of these combo trucks in one building and it solves your need for having multiple trucks, no?

[JediHutch61]

Actually I believe that it is a very logical option. Here, if you're on the medic for your shift and you get called on a fire, there is a good chance you'll be first on sence, due to the way our system is set up. If you have an ALS call for example you have to have a Medic and an Engine respond, so if your house's engine is out... you get my point. The role of the first medic on scene of a fire here is to act as a fire company. If it is a working fire, the next medic is to set up rehab and coordinate with the EMS Coordinator to get additional medics coming in for your transport capabilities. So if your the first medic, having the ability to put some of the "wet stuff on the red stuff" is better than being able to do nothing. Thats my two sense any way.

[MikeyPI]

Depressingly, the point is missed on this one, as with anything be it emergency equiptment, fighter aircraft or "cars", in every case in trying to do EVERYTHING, you lose the ability to excel at anything. Planes that are multirole while useful are in no way the cream of the crop at anything, so it destroys their function if the other side has a purpose-built toy... Likewise cars, a sports car isnt much good for transporting a family, you combine the two you kill the sports performance.

In the case of the Ambuengine, it has the same issues, it can do all these things, this is correct.. But in the end it does neither job extremely well. Add in the fact of well you can only do one job at a time with a particular vehicle, I just don't see the fiscal feasability of such a unit. Around here our engines carry medical supplies, granted not near what the RA's do but they can usually stabilize if necessary until the medical unit arrives (which is usually either right on the engine's heels or a minute behind them). If you have a critical patient AND a fire how do you address both considering the engine kinda needs to stick around to hit the fire in question, but the person also needs critical transport? In the end you're still calling in another rig...

Final point compare the hours the average engine logs cruising around vs an ambulance, the engine goes to the scene, addresses the issue, then returns to station, where the ambo arrives on scene, transport to the hospitl, then returns to station... Personally I'd rather pick up the bill for maintaining just the lighter medium class ambulance (and enevitably the bill for replacing said ambulance) over top of maintaining a complicated piece of equiptment like a hybrid ambuengine... Ambulance needs service, so too do furrengines, if any given component fails on the thing both operations are going to be offline until said equiptment can be repaired/replaced... It could theoretically cause insufficient manpower issues if these things were introduced to an area on a large scale.

Just my thoughts.

[krt2008]

Depressingly, the point is missed on this one, as with anything be it emergency equiptment, fighter aircraft or "cars", in every case in trying to do EVERYTHING, you lose the ability to excel at anything. Planes that are multirole while useful are in no way the cream of the crop at anything, so it destroys their function if the other side has a purpose-built toy... Likewise cars, a sports car isnt much good for transporting a family, you combine the two you kill the sports performance.

In the case of the Ambuengine, it has the same issues, it can do all these things, this is correct.. But in the end it does neither job extremely well. Add in the fact of well you can only do one job at a time with a particular vehicle, I just don't see the fiscal feasability of such a unit. Around here our engines carry medical supplies, granted not near what the RA's do but they can usually stabilize if necessary until the medical unit arrives (which is usually either right on the engine's heels or a minute behind them). If you have a critical patient AND a fire how do you address both considering the engine kinda needs to stick around to hit the fire in question, but the person also needs critical transport? In the end you're still calling in another rig...

Final point compare the hours the average engine logs cruising around vs an ambulance, the engine goes to the scene, addresses the issue, then returns to station, where the ambo arrives on scene, transport to the hospitl, then returns to station... Personally I'd rather pick up the bill for maintaining just the lighter medium class ambulance (and enevitably the bill for replacing said ambulance) over top of maintaining a complicated piece of equiptment like a hybrid ambuengine... Ambulance needs service, so too do furrengines, if any given component fails on the thing both operations are going to be offline until said equiptment can be repaired/replaced... It could theoretically cause insufficient manpower issues if these things were introduced to an area on a large scale.

Just my thoughts.

While all of this is true and I completely agree that the functionality of everything goes down because there is so much on it, it is a good idea. I know of many companies that have paid EMS and volunteer firefighters. When that station gets a call, many times the ambulance goes out to, if nothing more than to provide support. This means that the ambulance gets there first many times, and anything that they could do to suppress a fire or gain access to a trapped person could be the difference between saving a house, or saving a life. The potential is there but I'm sure it could use some tweaking here and there plus the size is a bit big which cuts down on maneuverability.